I thought the Fagles translation's introduction does a good job of explaining the idea that Homer could have been one or many authors due to the inconsistencies of the tale, and I agree this is probably an argument that will not be decided anytime soon, if ever.
As a continuation of the eternal controversy, it seems from what I've read that if you remove the catalog of ships from book 2 and the entire book 10 that everything else could have been written by a single poet.
I have read similar discussions. The Catalog of Ships (Book 2, Lines 484–759)
lists the contingents of the Achaean army, detailing their leaders, places of origin, and the number of ships. It is often considered a later addition because it serves more as a geographic and ethnographic record than a critical narrative piece. The style and tone differ from the rest of the poem, and some regions mentioned were not politically significant during Homer’s time, suggesting a later interpolation.
Book 10, called the Doloneia, describes Diomedes and Odysseus's nighttime spying mission. Some scholars argue that this chapter differs in tone, pacing, and thematic focus. It is also more episodic, lacking connection to the main narrative, and does not significantly impact the broader story.
I have also seen some discussion regarding the description of the Shield of Achilles in Book 18. The extended description of the shield crafted by Hephaestus is highly detailed and almost self-contained. It is considered a masterpiece of ekphrasis (vivid description of art). Its poetic style and digression into imagery have led some scholars to suggest it may have originated as an independent composition inserted into The Iliad.
With the existing historical record, the Homeric question is unlikely to be answered soon.
Jim, I agree that Fagles did a good job of painting this picture for us. The major complicating factor is the lack of a written record. So much is unknown because of the Dark Ages that were taking place in Greece at that time. Nearly everything was passed down by oral tradition. They did not place as much importance on who the author was as they did on the story itself.
Thanks for this introduction, Matthew, and Happy Birthday!
I’d read the Stephen Fry’s book Troy a year or so back. Your introduction helped me remember the context of the war. Odysseus is a terrific character. It was because of his idea of selecting a suitor for Helen, they all have to go to this war along with Menelaus. And then, interestingly, Odysseus pretended to be insane to get out of the war.
He is an intriguing character and it will be fascinating watching his story develop throughout the Iliad and into the Odyssey. I haven't read the book by Stephen Fry but it is on my list.
I’m only part way through the lengthy introduction in Fagles, but it’s already clear how little I know about ancient Greece and its mythology in general—I’m going to need an org chart for all the characters!
I am curious since it sounds like the writings ascribed to Homer are some of the oldest texts we have, do they serve as the basis of what we know about Zeus et al, or are there other writings around the same time that inform what we generally call “Greek mythology”?
Chris, that's an excellent question. First of all, don't get too bogged down in the intro. It can be pretty academic at times. Refer to it at your leisure, but don't let it keep you from reading the rest of the story.
Our knowledge of Greek mythology and the pantheon of the gods primarily derives from a variety of ancient sources. Homer's works are two of the major ones. Other things considered source material include Hesiod's writings, the poetry of Pindar and Bacchylides, and playwrights such as Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes.
We also have some historical texts, the most famous of which is Herodotus's Histories. Some of Plato's works also give us insight. So there are a lot of sources but Homer is definitely one of the big ones.
I do face a constant internal struggle between academic geekery and laziness 🤣 I am also now realizing if I’m not mistaken that these books were 300-ish years old when Plato was writing! When you cram all of ancient Greek history into two days of high school history class, I think you have to cut corners ✂️
Along with Fagle's translation, Matthew recommended Emily Wilson's translation of The Iliad. She has a much more detailed genealogy in her book than does Fagle's. See pgs 106, 107, 108.
Beth, thanks for catching this. In my version of Wilson's translation, the genealogies are included as an appendix, but they are definitely more detailed. Appreciate you bringing that to our attention.
I, as I’m sure many others, read the Odyssey in college…100 years ago 😊…really looking forward to this journey with you! And happiest of birthdays to you and your son!
As an engineering major, not only was I not required to read the classics, I had no free time to do so until after grad school! Substack is like a candy store to me now 😋
Thanks Tami! I think you are correct that most of us read pieces or parts of these a long time ago. I remember that I barely understood these in my early 20s. I am not even sure what translation I read. Much different experience this time around and I am glad to be doing it with a group of interested readers rather than bored students!
Nice! Welcome Roger. Glad to have you along. It will be good to have some folks who have read it previously to provide their insight on how a reread has helped them get more out of it.
Looking forward to this! Thank you, Matthew. You seem to be establishing (in part) a community of techies who realize there's more to education than math and the hard sciences.
I noticed that! My son is a computer science major so I guess there is a natural affinity there. Glad to have all readers and different perspectives to lend their ideas to the discussion.
Sorry I wasn’t done yet! As an English major I never have read the Iliad and am so excited to have this group on Substack which I only discovered a few months ago.
The intro is some tough reading and I too feel as though I need a genealogy chart for all these people.
Love what you’re doing and looking forward to having read both the Iliad and the Odyssey by years end.
Welcome Kim! Glad to have you here. I am going to do my best to explain the main characters as we go along. In some parts of the story there are too many names and most of them are very minor. We will stick to the major players and themes so that we get the main ideas. Some of the other tangents are good for exploring on a future rereading.
This engaging introduction to The Iliad beautifully bridges ancient epics and modern life. Matthew. I have always found it a little foreboding, but you drive a hard bargain. :)
Mary, I happen to think he was an oral poet as well and someone later put down the stories on paper but that is just a personal theory.
I have never read Ulysses as I have always been intimidated by it. That is one reason I wanted to do this Homer project because in 2026 I plan to read Ulysses.
Thanks for your support. I am listening to your book on Audible. I am about halfway finished.
I'm actually hoping to do a simultaneous Odyssey/Ulysses read later this year. I did an audiobook listen of Ulysses a little over a year ago, and I'm not sure if I love it or hate it or both.
Hi Matthew - what you’ve stated is in fact what classicists agree to, and they don’t always agree to much! So your instincts are on the mark. Even after writing was more commonplace, literacy was uncommon, restricted to the upper classes, and even upper class women were not taught to read. It was a strongly oral culture, and people’s memories were highly developed. The epic poems were recited for centuries before they were written down.
Happy birthday Matthew. I am glad for the introduction. It gives me a foundation to understand this epic. I’m along for the communal learning; I would not have tackled this otherwise. Very excited!!
Happy birthday, shipmate!🎂This was a superb introduction for preparing new readers to encounter Homer's work. If you don't mind, I'm going to send my readers here for their Iliad education as part of my own project to prepare people to read Dante's Divine Comedy. No need for me to recreate what you've already done so well here!
I thought the Fagles translation's introduction does a good job of explaining the idea that Homer could have been one or many authors due to the inconsistencies of the tale, and I agree this is probably an argument that will not be decided anytime soon, if ever.
As a continuation of the eternal controversy, it seems from what I've read that if you remove the catalog of ships from book 2 and the entire book 10 that everything else could have been written by a single poet.
I have read similar discussions. The Catalog of Ships (Book 2, Lines 484–759)
lists the contingents of the Achaean army, detailing their leaders, places of origin, and the number of ships. It is often considered a later addition because it serves more as a geographic and ethnographic record than a critical narrative piece. The style and tone differ from the rest of the poem, and some regions mentioned were not politically significant during Homer’s time, suggesting a later interpolation.
Book 10, called the Doloneia, describes Diomedes and Odysseus's nighttime spying mission. Some scholars argue that this chapter differs in tone, pacing, and thematic focus. It is also more episodic, lacking connection to the main narrative, and does not significantly impact the broader story.
I have also seen some discussion regarding the description of the Shield of Achilles in Book 18. The extended description of the shield crafted by Hephaestus is highly detailed and almost self-contained. It is considered a masterpiece of ekphrasis (vivid description of art). Its poetic style and digression into imagery have led some scholars to suggest it may have originated as an independent composition inserted into The Iliad.
With the existing historical record, the Homeric question is unlikely to be answered soon.
Jim, I agree that Fagles did a good job of painting this picture for us. The major complicating factor is the lack of a written record. So much is unknown because of the Dark Ages that were taking place in Greece at that time. Nearly everything was passed down by oral tradition. They did not place as much importance on who the author was as they did on the story itself.
Thanks for this introduction, Matthew, and Happy Birthday!
I’d read the Stephen Fry’s book Troy a year or so back. Your introduction helped me remember the context of the war. Odysseus is a terrific character. It was because of his idea of selecting a suitor for Helen, they all have to go to this war along with Menelaus. And then, interestingly, Odysseus pretended to be insane to get out of the war.
He is an intriguing character and it will be fascinating watching his story develop throughout the Iliad and into the Odyssey. I haven't read the book by Stephen Fry but it is on my list.
I’m only part way through the lengthy introduction in Fagles, but it’s already clear how little I know about ancient Greece and its mythology in general—I’m going to need an org chart for all the characters!
I am curious since it sounds like the writings ascribed to Homer are some of the oldest texts we have, do they serve as the basis of what we know about Zeus et al, or are there other writings around the same time that inform what we generally call “Greek mythology”?
Looking forward to our journey!
Chris, that's an excellent question. First of all, don't get too bogged down in the intro. It can be pretty academic at times. Refer to it at your leisure, but don't let it keep you from reading the rest of the story.
Our knowledge of Greek mythology and the pantheon of the gods primarily derives from a variety of ancient sources. Homer's works are two of the major ones. Other things considered source material include Hesiod's writings, the poetry of Pindar and Bacchylides, and playwrights such as Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes.
We also have some historical texts, the most famous of which is Herodotus's Histories. Some of Plato's works also give us insight. So there are a lot of sources but Homer is definitely one of the big ones.
I do face a constant internal struggle between academic geekery and laziness 🤣 I am also now realizing if I’m not mistaken that these books were 300-ish years old when Plato was writing! When you cram all of ancient Greek history into two days of high school history class, I think you have to cut corners ✂️
So happy to see you here Chris - your comments always bring a smile to my face 🙃
Along with Fagle's translation, Matthew recommended Emily Wilson's translation of The Iliad. She has a much more detailed genealogy in her book than does Fagle's. See pgs 106, 107, 108.
Beth, thanks for catching this. In my version of Wilson's translation, the genealogies are included as an appendix, but they are definitely more detailed. Appreciate you bringing that to our attention.
Matthew, the page numbers I referenced are in the Audible PDF. I should have mentioned that correctly.
Happy Birthday to you both, and thanks for this great introduction to get us started. The map of Greek rulers is especially helpful for me.
Thanks Cherie. So glad you are joining us on this journey. I found the map to be very helpful as well in understanding the setup of everything.
For someone who has never read the classics, I really enjoyed reading your article! Looking forward to next ones!
And happy birthday!
Thanks Vijay! My early education was very delinquent in the classics so I am making up for lost time. Glad you are here.
I, as I’m sure many others, read the Odyssey in college…100 years ago 😊…really looking forward to this journey with you! And happiest of birthdays to you and your son!
As an engineering major, not only was I not required to read the classics, I had no free time to do so until after grad school! Substack is like a candy store to me now 😋
Thanks Tami! I think you are correct that most of us read pieces or parts of these a long time ago. I remember that I barely understood these in my early 20s. I am not even sure what translation I read. Much different experience this time around and I am glad to be doing it with a group of interested readers rather than bored students!
Read Iliad for second time in a long time in 2024. I am liking reading it again in 2025 along with this crew...
Nice! Welcome Roger. Glad to have you along. It will be good to have some folks who have read it previously to provide their insight on how a reread has helped them get more out of it.
Looking forward to this! Thank you, Matthew. You seem to be establishing (in part) a community of techies who realize there's more to education than math and the hard sciences.
I noticed that! My son is a computer science major so I guess there is a natural affinity there. Glad to have all readers and different perspectives to lend their ideas to the discussion.
Hello and Happy Birthday! I lived in Middle Tennessee for about 35 years and am now in North Carolina.
Sorry I wasn’t done yet! As an English major I never have read the Iliad and am so excited to have this group on Substack which I only discovered a few months ago.
The intro is some tough reading and I too feel as though I need a genealogy chart for all these people.
Love what you’re doing and looking forward to having read both the Iliad and the Odyssey by years end.
Welcome Kim! Glad to have you here. I am going to do my best to explain the main characters as we go along. In some parts of the story there are too many names and most of them are very minor. We will stick to the major players and themes so that we get the main ideas. Some of the other tangents are good for exploring on a future rereading.
This engaging introduction to The Iliad beautifully bridges ancient epics and modern life. Matthew. I have always found it a little foreboding, but you drive a hard bargain. :)
Glad you found it accessible Jon. Would love to have your insight along the journey.
I LOVE the logo: “created with HUMAN Intelligence”!!!
Thanks Mary!
Also a long-term view that Homer was an oral poet. I once did a graduate thesis on this theory, examining both The Iliad and The Odyssey.
And then, of course, we have Joyce's tome Ulysses that is one of my all time favorites and that I read agains and again!
Go, Matthew!
Mary, I happen to think he was an oral poet as well and someone later put down the stories on paper but that is just a personal theory.
I have never read Ulysses as I have always been intimidated by it. That is one reason I wanted to do this Homer project because in 2026 I plan to read Ulysses.
Thanks for your support. I am listening to your book on Audible. I am about halfway finished.
I'm actually hoping to do a simultaneous Odyssey/Ulysses read later this year. I did an audiobook listen of Ulysses a little over a year ago, and I'm not sure if I love it or hate it or both.
Hi Matthew - what you’ve stated is in fact what classicists agree to, and they don’t always agree to much! So your instincts are on the mark. Even after writing was more commonplace, literacy was uncommon, restricted to the upper classes, and even upper class women were not taught to read. It was a strongly oral culture, and people’s memories were highly developed. The epic poems were recited for centuries before they were written down.
I’ll send you a link on Inner Life when I get home and in which I explain how to read Ulysses and WHY! Or search for it innerlfecollaboratve.com
Here you go: On Reading Ulysses: https://innerlifecollaborative.substack.com/p/on-reading-ulysses
Happy birthday Matthew. I am glad for the introduction. It gives me a foundation to understand this epic. I’m along for the communal learning; I would not have tackled this otherwise. Very excited!!
Thanks Lucy. Glad to have you here for the community experience.
-Cracks knuckles- Who’s ready for The Catalogue of Ships?
I am curious to see what others think of that section. Glad to have you here Michael.
Glad to be here! 🙂
Ha ha, that chapter was where I gave up the last time I tried to read The Iliad. Too bad it was chapter 2!
Haha, I belieeeve! This time you’ve got it! With extra direction and encouragement from Matthew to help stay the course. 💪
Happy birthday, shipmate!🎂This was a superb introduction for preparing new readers to encounter Homer's work. If you don't mind, I'm going to send my readers here for their Iliad education as part of my own project to prepare people to read Dante's Divine Comedy. No need for me to recreate what you've already done so well here!
Thanks Amy! Please send your readers here. I would love to have them join the conversation as well.