My understanding that Athena isn’t Odysseus’s mum, she just favours him. She is inspired by his cunning and wants to support and develop him. Almost like a Mentor
Reading the second half of this chapter I was stuck by how men many were descended from gods/goddesses. Either directly or descendants of descendants. I wonder if this was done to also connect the audiences of the stories to the gods.
I also found Wilson’s note about the long list moving. Not only does it highlight all the different places the soldiers came from but also the sheer number of those who died, on both sides
And here I am with only 6 swift ships in my golden armed command, like a chump. 🫤 I do love that no name can be written without adjectives, and I fear I will start talking like that in my daily life, lest I incur the wrath of my black-blooded boss.
While not a genealogy, the listing of all the armies did feel like some “begats” to me, probably just because we’re not as used to oral histories these days.
The adjective “long-haired” is used repeatedly when describing the Achaean’s. Does anyone know if being long-haired carried any significance other than the purely physical attribute?
I'm reading the Richard Lattimore translation. In the Intro, he talks about how all statements are dominated by meter.
I went down a rabbit hole exploring dactylic hexameter on Wikipedia with its strictly defined combination of short and long syllables across each line - pretty fascinating how such a formal construct can end up influencing how we view what may have happened in historical accounts.
Lattimore advises that because Achilleus and Odysseus share the same number of syllables, we'll see a lot of "dios" or "brilliant" to describe both of them - not necessarily in connection with what's being done but rather at the dictates of the meter.
I welcome further insight from any Greek or Latin scholars.
Dan, great question. This is a technique used by the original poets to establish the correct number of syllables in a line. They use these descriptors in many places. My guess is that in the original Greek, "long-haired" was the right number of syllables for many of the lines and was also a common physical trait so it was easy to use.
I loved the catalog of ships, which each leader having "forty long black ships" more or less. It helped me imagine the enormity of the Achaean force, but I did have to stop myself from tallying them up to see if all one thousand were accounted for. 😂
I also found the long catalogue of ships and local leaders and troops very visual, as well as a technique for engaging an audience . I imagine listeners waiting to hear their own name or that of a friend or known place to be mentioned… a rhetorical skill still effective now.
Yes, this! And also, why do certain characters get more backstory? We learn that Podarkes is leading one of the convoys, but only because Protesilaos is dead (the people lacked not a leader though they longed for him and his valour) or that Tlepolemos killed his father's beloved uncle and was fugitive at sea. For others, we simply get a name and geographic area.
It's making me realize that most of the books I read really only introduce characters if they further the story. This is requiring a shift in mindset and expectations (what do I need to remember, whose name should I be tracking?).
The beginning of this chapter always makes me think of South Park. Some authority figure will pull the Agamemnon stunt of testing the loyalty of the kids, and the response will be: "See ya", after which Stan will turn to them and give some inspirational speech meant to turn them around. Of course, not being a Homeric Epic, there will be a pregnant pause followed by Cartman saying "Screw you guys, I'm going home"
These are some great observations Lucy. I don't think you can go too deep. These epic poems are rich with history and tradition. Lots of fascinating rabbit holes to explore along the way.
I find it fascinating to notice what in the story seems foreign to me and what has a more relatable ring. Odysseus mixture of brutality and persuasion actually continues to be used to great effect in modern contexts. Successful leaders often have the ability to inspire and humiliate, maybe simultaneously. That's more an observation than a commendation by the way.
The chaotic regime of gods influencing and directing the war is always disorienting to me. Deus ex machina has a different impact when you're not sure which side the gods are on today and what mood they're in.
Roger, this is an interesting observation and one I hadn't thought of previously. Some of the actions are more relatable than others.
During my career in the Navy, I certainly experienced some Odysseus-like leaders (and many who were not).
I don't mind a bit of Deus ex machina but it can get a bit confusing in this case. The gods are fighting each other and they are interfering in the lives of men. I also feel like the gods here can change their mind on a whim.
Enjoyed your focus on the significance of Odysseus’ character and leadership in both Book 2 and the larger narrative. You might find our thoughts on Odysseus and his connection to the scepter in Book 2 interesting—we explore its deeper meaning in our post on Book 2.
To me, the insults and threats overshadowed Odysseus’s rhetorical gift and the reminders of prophecy and vow.
“Look at them now, like green, defenseless boys or widowed women whimpering to each other.”
“Look at you, carrying on in the armies’ muster just like boys—fools”
“Any soldier wild with desire to reach his home at once—just let him lay a hand on his black benched hip and right in front of the rest he’ll reach his death!”
“Any man I catch trying to skulk behind his long beaked ships, hanging back from battle—he is finished. No way for him to escape the dogs and birds!”
2.
And I’m not sure if Zeus is terrified of his wife. We get this in Book 1:
“Obey my orders, for fear the gods, however many Olympus holds, are powerless to protect you when I come to throttle you with my irresistible hands.”
And Hera is the one who is “terrified. She sat in silence.”
It looks like Zeus just wants to avoid fighting with her and spoil his mood.
3.
Deception is a great point! At last, deception is what helps the Achaeans to win the war (Trojan Horse idea by Odysseus).
Curious how others reas this. It seems like Thersites is making the same argument that Achilleus did in Book 1 (Agamemnon is greedy, takes the troops for granted, it's better to go home, etc.). But in this case, Thersites gets a detailed description about his ugliness and then Odysseus "puts him in his place."
I read the long recitation in Book 2 of the units and their leaders as the order of battle for the opposing Achaean and Trojan armies. "Order of battle" is a term I've seen reading military history. The order of battle of an armed force includes a list and description of things like its organization, units and formations, command structure, strength and equipment. Typically it is presented at the beginning of an account of a battle or military campaign, to set the stage for the description of combat that the author is about to present. As a literary device, it's like the dramatis personae in a play -- putting it up front in the narrative makes logical sense and helps the reader keep things straight as the action unfolds.
Of course that's exactly what's going on in Book 2. Homer sets the stage for what's to come by listing the army units on each side, telling us where they're from, and describing the commander of each. For a modern reader like me, this is what I'd expect -- in an account of the Battle of Gettysburg, before getting to an account of the Union Army's heroic bayonet charge down Little Round Top, the reader would hear that the 20th Maine Infantry was the unit that made the charge and thatvit was led by Joshua Chamberlain, formerly a professor at Bowdoin College.
As I read the lengthy listing in Book 2 I recognized that it's the prototype in Western literature for the military storytelling I've seen so many times in histories of, say, the Civil War or World War II. Even a war movie like Saving Private Ryan includes scenes that show the massing of Allied invasion forces off the Normandy coast just before the horrific scenes portraying the American forces landing under heavy enemy fire. Just as in The Iliad, the gathering of forces visually precedes the fighting and sets the stage for what follows.
Paul, this is a great observation. It is nearly impossible for us to know if that was the original intent of the poets. What is easier to discern is the impact it has had on literature and film. As I was reading your note I immediately thought of the movie "Dunkirk" and the great amassing of the evacuation fleet. In this case it was to help the army escape but it was a similar cinematic effect.
This essay highlights Odysseus’s pragmatism and the complex leadership dynamics in The Iliad. I especially loved your insight into collective heroism—an enduring reminder of the balance between individual brilliance and unity. It helps me understand the text.
Thanks Jon. I feel my time in the military greatly influenced the way I perceive individual vs team accomplishments. Both are necessary components and a strategic balance must be maintained otherwise the whole thing falls apart.
This section was interesting to me for its 'retrospective allusions.' Of course, my first connection with the roll call of ships was the long lists in the Bible that took genealogy to another level. I made myself read it noting all of the gods that people and places were connected with.
When you think of the over a thousand ships they listed (I used a calculator), my mental imagery could only zoom-out to capture the full picture and at that point I was looking at a metaphorical ant colony on the beach, wondering which of the gods' underhanded involvements were going to stomp on them.
I also couldn't help, but think about Macbeth being deceived by Hecate through the Apparitions and the Witches. Agamemnon isn't wrapped in delusion as Macbeth was, but his ambition and pride may be close, and we all know how that ended.
"Cinematic" is a word that I think applies to The Iliad itself as well as the war movies we're referring to here. As I read I find myself visualizing some of the narrative as scenes in a film.
What wonderful context and discussion! I’ve had Wilson’s translations on my to-read list for some time now… now that I’ve discovered your book club I must get started on them. I look forward to catching up for the next post!
My understanding that Athena isn’t Odysseus’s mum, she just favours him. She is inspired by his cunning and wants to support and develop him. Almost like a Mentor
Sarah, you are correct. Thanks for catching that. Oddly enough, in my hand written notes I do have it down as mentor.
I was able to edit and update the online version to reflect the correct information. Thanks again.
Reading the second half of this chapter I was stuck by how men many were descended from gods/goddesses. Either directly or descendants of descendants. I wonder if this was done to also connect the audiences of the stories to the gods.
I also found Wilson’s note about the long list moving. Not only does it highlight all the different places the soldiers came from but also the sheer number of those who died, on both sides
Yeah, I was wondering about how the whole mixed-parentage works. If my wife were immortal, my son would never listen to me! 🤣
And here I am with only 6 swift ships in my golden armed command, like a chump. 🫤 I do love that no name can be written without adjectives, and I fear I will start talking like that in my daily life, lest I incur the wrath of my black-blooded boss.
While not a genealogy, the listing of all the armies did feel like some “begats” to me, probably just because we’re not as used to oral histories these days.
The adjective “long-haired” is used repeatedly when describing the Achaean’s. Does anyone know if being long-haired carried any significance other than the purely physical attribute?
Thanks for this question. I was also wondering this.
I think it could’ve been chosen more for poetic reasons, like alliteration or rhyme or something. We lose that in translation.
I wonder if it was simply considered a sign of health and vitality. In the same tradition as Samson of the bible? Or Yanni?
I'm reading the Richard Lattimore translation. In the Intro, he talks about how all statements are dominated by meter.
I went down a rabbit hole exploring dactylic hexameter on Wikipedia with its strictly defined combination of short and long syllables across each line - pretty fascinating how such a formal construct can end up influencing how we view what may have happened in historical accounts.
Lattimore advises that because Achilleus and Odysseus share the same number of syllables, we'll see a lot of "dios" or "brilliant" to describe both of them - not necessarily in connection with what's being done but rather at the dictates of the meter.
I welcome further insight from any Greek or Latin scholars.
Dan, great question. This is a technique used by the original poets to establish the correct number of syllables in a line. They use these descriptors in many places. My guess is that in the original Greek, "long-haired" was the right number of syllables for many of the lines and was also a common physical trait so it was easy to use.
Reminded me a lot of LOTR
I loved the catalog of ships, which each leader having "forty long black ships" more or less. It helped me imagine the enormity of the Achaean force, but I did have to stop myself from tallying them up to see if all one thousand were accounted for. 😂
I hope the beach isn’t crowded on attack day!
I also found the long catalogue of ships and local leaders and troops very visual, as well as a technique for engaging an audience . I imagine listeners waiting to hear their own name or that of a friend or known place to be mentioned… a rhetorical skill still effective now.
Yes, this! And also, why do certain characters get more backstory? We learn that Podarkes is leading one of the convoys, but only because Protesilaos is dead (the people lacked not a leader though they longed for him and his valour) or that Tlepolemos killed his father's beloved uncle and was fugitive at sea. For others, we simply get a name and geographic area.
It's making me realize that most of the books I read really only introduce characters if they further the story. This is requiring a shift in mindset and expectations (what do I need to remember, whose name should I be tracking?).
The beginning of this chapter always makes me think of South Park. Some authority figure will pull the Agamemnon stunt of testing the loyalty of the kids, and the response will be: "See ya", after which Stan will turn to them and give some inspirational speech meant to turn them around. Of course, not being a Homeric Epic, there will be a pregnant pause followed by Cartman saying "Screw you guys, I'm going home"
I did think of the book of Numbers reading this chapter.
Also a few notes I took. For what they’re worth. I tend to go too deep maybe.
The snake dream: people will make anything a sign (from God). They need a narrative.
Calling the Muses to sing: who remembers the fallen or those who fight? We only remember the Generals.
At 695 for whatever reason: one falls, another rises up; war goes on.
These are some great observations Lucy. I don't think you can go too deep. These epic poems are rich with history and tradition. Lots of fascinating rabbit holes to explore along the way.
Right up my alley :)
I find it fascinating to notice what in the story seems foreign to me and what has a more relatable ring. Odysseus mixture of brutality and persuasion actually continues to be used to great effect in modern contexts. Successful leaders often have the ability to inspire and humiliate, maybe simultaneously. That's more an observation than a commendation by the way.
The chaotic regime of gods influencing and directing the war is always disorienting to me. Deus ex machina has a different impact when you're not sure which side the gods are on today and what mood they're in.
And that they are fighting with each other and you can't tell who is winning.
Roger, this is an interesting observation and one I hadn't thought of previously. Some of the actions are more relatable than others.
During my career in the Navy, I certainly experienced some Odysseus-like leaders (and many who were not).
I don't mind a bit of Deus ex machina but it can get a bit confusing in this case. The gods are fighting each other and they are interfering in the lives of men. I also feel like the gods here can change their mind on a whim.
Super fun to see Odysseus make an appearance here, right? It feels like Homer’s spin on the MCU. 😆
Matthew,
Enjoyed your focus on the significance of Odysseus’ character and leadership in both Book 2 and the larger narrative. You might find our thoughts on Odysseus and his connection to the scepter in Book 2 interesting—we explore its deeper meaning in our post on Book 2.
Can you share a link? I would like to check it out and I am sure others would as well.
https://incontrare.substack.com/p/iliad-book-2?r=abhpv
Here you go. Interested in your reaction.
1.
To me, the insults and threats overshadowed Odysseus’s rhetorical gift and the reminders of prophecy and vow.
“Look at them now, like green, defenseless boys or widowed women whimpering to each other.”
“Look at you, carrying on in the armies’ muster just like boys—fools”
“Any soldier wild with desire to reach his home at once—just let him lay a hand on his black benched hip and right in front of the rest he’ll reach his death!”
“Any man I catch trying to skulk behind his long beaked ships, hanging back from battle—he is finished. No way for him to escape the dogs and birds!”
2.
And I’m not sure if Zeus is terrified of his wife. We get this in Book 1:
“Obey my orders, for fear the gods, however many Olympus holds, are powerless to protect you when I come to throttle you with my irresistible hands.”
And Hera is the one who is “terrified. She sat in silence.”
It looks like Zeus just wants to avoid fighting with her and spoil his mood.
3.
Deception is a great point! At last, deception is what helps the Achaeans to win the war (Trojan Horse idea by Odysseus).
Curious how others reas this. It seems like Thersites is making the same argument that Achilleus did in Book 1 (Agamemnon is greedy, takes the troops for granted, it's better to go home, etc.). But in this case, Thersites gets a detailed description about his ugliness and then Odysseus "puts him in his place."
I read the long recitation in Book 2 of the units and their leaders as the order of battle for the opposing Achaean and Trojan armies. "Order of battle" is a term I've seen reading military history. The order of battle of an armed force includes a list and description of things like its organization, units and formations, command structure, strength and equipment. Typically it is presented at the beginning of an account of a battle or military campaign, to set the stage for the description of combat that the author is about to present. As a literary device, it's like the dramatis personae in a play -- putting it up front in the narrative makes logical sense and helps the reader keep things straight as the action unfolds.
Of course that's exactly what's going on in Book 2. Homer sets the stage for what's to come by listing the army units on each side, telling us where they're from, and describing the commander of each. For a modern reader like me, this is what I'd expect -- in an account of the Battle of Gettysburg, before getting to an account of the Union Army's heroic bayonet charge down Little Round Top, the reader would hear that the 20th Maine Infantry was the unit that made the charge and thatvit was led by Joshua Chamberlain, formerly a professor at Bowdoin College.
As I read the lengthy listing in Book 2 I recognized that it's the prototype in Western literature for the military storytelling I've seen so many times in histories of, say, the Civil War or World War II. Even a war movie like Saving Private Ryan includes scenes that show the massing of Allied invasion forces off the Normandy coast just before the horrific scenes portraying the American forces landing under heavy enemy fire. Just as in The Iliad, the gathering of forces visually precedes the fighting and sets the stage for what follows.
Paul, this is a great observation. It is nearly impossible for us to know if that was the original intent of the poets. What is easier to discern is the impact it has had on literature and film. As I was reading your note I immediately thought of the movie "Dunkirk" and the great amassing of the evacuation fleet. In this case it was to help the army escape but it was a similar cinematic effect.
This essay highlights Odysseus’s pragmatism and the complex leadership dynamics in The Iliad. I especially loved your insight into collective heroism—an enduring reminder of the balance between individual brilliance and unity. It helps me understand the text.
Thanks Jon. I feel my time in the military greatly influenced the way I perceive individual vs team accomplishments. Both are necessary components and a strategic balance must be maintained otherwise the whole thing falls apart.
This section was interesting to me for its 'retrospective allusions.' Of course, my first connection with the roll call of ships was the long lists in the Bible that took genealogy to another level. I made myself read it noting all of the gods that people and places were connected with.
When you think of the over a thousand ships they listed (I used a calculator), my mental imagery could only zoom-out to capture the full picture and at that point I was looking at a metaphorical ant colony on the beach, wondering which of the gods' underhanded involvements were going to stomp on them.
I also couldn't help, but think about Macbeth being deceived by Hecate through the Apparitions and the Witches. Agamemnon isn't wrapped in delusion as Macbeth was, but his ambition and pride may be close, and we all know how that ended.
"Cinematic" is a word that I think applies to The Iliad itself as well as the war movies we're referring to here. As I read I find myself visualizing some of the narrative as scenes in a film.
What wonderful context and discussion! I’ve had Wilson’s translations on my to-read list for some time now… now that I’ve discovered your book club I must get started on them. I look forward to catching up for the next post!