so true haha. But there are a number of “reverse gender” similes in Homer! It’s interesting how it characterizes Agamemnon, who is trying to “birth” victory
I found this comparison so interesting and confusing. If men were the primary audience of Iliad readings - what do they know about labor pain? They couldn't commiserate/empathize with A.'s suffering. Was it supposed to be funny? Was A. being ridiculed for leaving battle? Or were ancient Greeks in awe of labor pains? I want to read Emily Wilson's translation to see a woman's interpretation of that text. I still can’t get over the brutal descriptions of the battle atrocities: The Trojan warrior's arms and head being chopped off, his body rolling down the hill like a log was like whoa. So gruesome.
For all the wanton slashing and killing, I have no idea how everyone has survived 11 chapters, let alone the supposed years beforehand?! And we also have the survivor bias question: did these men survive because of their greatness or are they great because they survived? Given the favor of the gods I think Homer leans clearly towards the former.
Having recently read the Odyssey, I have been dwelling a lot on Odysseus’ encounter with Agamemnon in the underworld. A made it home, only to be savagely murdered by his wife. Did that give O pause in his own journey homeward? Did it color his recounting of his adventures to his son, his wife, his subjects? Homer is endlessly ponderable.
Another pretty bloody chapter. I keep wondering: what’s with all the intermittent rock-throwing by Homer’s protagonists? Is has a comic effect on me. Even a severely wounded Agememnon starts throwing ‘heavy rocks’ around ‘so long as the blood came flowing warm from his wound. Was that accepted royal battlefield demeanor during in Bronze Age times?
I also thought it fascinating that Homer asscribes Agamemnon’s late realization that he was indeed severely wounded to the fact that he only started feeling pain after the ‘gash dried and firm clots formed.’ We know that wounded animals have a kind of shock reaction of physical numbness right after injury. This presumably evolved to enable an injured or wounded animal to escape from a dangerous situation without being hampered by intense pain.
I’m not aware this happens with humans on the battlefield too, does anybody know this? I must say it’s these little surprising and life-like details I like best about the Ilias.
It’s fortunate that glass houses were not in fashion. I guess you use whatever is at hand.
(As an aside, I’m also reading LOTR for the first time, and appreciate the fact that Legolas is like crap, I’m out of arrows! Films have spoiled me for endless ammo)
The Iliad's various descriptions of dawn are among my favorite lines, and the beginning of Book 11 does not disappoint.
The wounding of major figures and their determination to fight on certainly enhances their roles as brave and courageous warriors. The wounded Acheans would seem to be the most courageous of all, because they know Zeus favors the Trojans.
The tension between individual agency and the will of Zeus is an interesting point and raises many questions in my mind. What drives the courage and determination of the Acheans knowing that Zeus can bring them up short at any time? Do their actions suggest a hope that their will or some other force is stronger than Zeus? And if Zeus is all-powerful why does he allow the Acheans to inflict any losses on the Trojans? As the battle wages and the Acheans and Trojans slaughter each other it's almost as if Zeus is just toying with the mortals, allowing events to play out to a point for his own amusement. Zeus (and other gods for that matter) are not paragons of virtue. What does that say about the role of religion in ancient Greece?
I was lucky enough to watch sunrise over the carribean sea last week, and Homer's descriptions of dawn kept running through my head as I experienced the beauty.
I've always thought that the Greek's tended to ascribe the unexplainable to the gods. Those time when you do everything right only for everything to go wrong. Or some extraordinary piece of luck occurs right when you need it. It's just the gods doing their thing.
I love how Nestor is not only well known to be long winded but also the Iliad itself allots so many lines to him. Apparently his cup, described here, was a source of fascination in ancient times, although I think I would pass on the concoction they drank. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor's_Cup_(mythology)
You may have discussed this previously, but do you think Homer intended to portray Agamemnon as an unlikeable character (setting aside whether or not he actually existed in history for a minute)? I've always read him as pretty despicable, which I think has to do with the opening of the book, as you mentioned.
“Blood ran like rain through gaping wounds.”
Love this opening quote.
Me too. It is so visceral.
When Homer started comparing Agamemnon’s injury to birth pains, I ducked a little and whispered “don’t go there buddy!” 🤣
Homer clearly had a weak radar for contemporary sensibilities.
Yeah, I was thinking it is a good thing none of the wives are hanging around right now.
so true haha. But there are a number of “reverse gender” similes in Homer! It’s interesting how it characterizes Agamemnon, who is trying to “birth” victory
I found this comparison so interesting and confusing. If men were the primary audience of Iliad readings - what do they know about labor pain? They couldn't commiserate/empathize with A.'s suffering. Was it supposed to be funny? Was A. being ridiculed for leaving battle? Or were ancient Greeks in awe of labor pains? I want to read Emily Wilson's translation to see a woman's interpretation of that text. I still can’t get over the brutal descriptions of the battle atrocities: The Trojan warrior's arms and head being chopped off, his body rolling down the hill like a log was like whoa. So gruesome.
For all the wanton slashing and killing, I have no idea how everyone has survived 11 chapters, let alone the supposed years beforehand?! And we also have the survivor bias question: did these men survive because of their greatness or are they great because they survived? Given the favor of the gods I think Homer leans clearly towards the former.
I was thinking this as I was reading, too.
Having recently read the Odyssey, I have been dwelling a lot on Odysseus’ encounter with Agamemnon in the underworld. A made it home, only to be savagely murdered by his wife. Did that give O pause in his own journey homeward? Did it color his recounting of his adventures to his son, his wife, his subjects? Homer is endlessly ponderable.
Another pretty bloody chapter. I keep wondering: what’s with all the intermittent rock-throwing by Homer’s protagonists? Is has a comic effect on me. Even a severely wounded Agememnon starts throwing ‘heavy rocks’ around ‘so long as the blood came flowing warm from his wound. Was that accepted royal battlefield demeanor during in Bronze Age times?
I also thought it fascinating that Homer asscribes Agamemnon’s late realization that he was indeed severely wounded to the fact that he only started feeling pain after the ‘gash dried and firm clots formed.’ We know that wounded animals have a kind of shock reaction of physical numbness right after injury. This presumably evolved to enable an injured or wounded animal to escape from a dangerous situation without being hampered by intense pain.
I’m not aware this happens with humans on the battlefield too, does anybody know this? I must say it’s these little surprising and life-like details I like best about the Ilias.
It’s fortunate that glass houses were not in fashion. I guess you use whatever is at hand.
(As an aside, I’m also reading LOTR for the first time, and appreciate the fact that Legolas is like crap, I’m out of arrows! Films have spoiled me for endless ammo)
That is arguably my favorite name to pronounce. If I’d have had a son I would’ve given it serious consideration. Then called him Aggie.
Thanks for another great essay.
The Iliad's various descriptions of dawn are among my favorite lines, and the beginning of Book 11 does not disappoint.
The wounding of major figures and their determination to fight on certainly enhances their roles as brave and courageous warriors. The wounded Acheans would seem to be the most courageous of all, because they know Zeus favors the Trojans.
The tension between individual agency and the will of Zeus is an interesting point and raises many questions in my mind. What drives the courage and determination of the Acheans knowing that Zeus can bring them up short at any time? Do their actions suggest a hope that their will or some other force is stronger than Zeus? And if Zeus is all-powerful why does he allow the Acheans to inflict any losses on the Trojans? As the battle wages and the Acheans and Trojans slaughter each other it's almost as if Zeus is just toying with the mortals, allowing events to play out to a point for his own amusement. Zeus (and other gods for that matter) are not paragons of virtue. What does that say about the role of religion in ancient Greece?
I was lucky enough to watch sunrise over the carribean sea last week, and Homer's descriptions of dawn kept running through my head as I experienced the beauty.
I've always thought that the Greek's tended to ascribe the unexplainable to the gods. Those time when you do everything right only for everything to go wrong. Or some extraordinary piece of luck occurs right when you need it. It's just the gods doing their thing.
Even though I am not currently reading The Iliad, I found the timely in helping me understand Odysseus in The Odyssey.
How does Book 11 reinforce or challenge the theme of fate versus free will? Great question Matthew, I was thinking the same myself.
I’m also intrigued by Nestor’s request of Patroclus. It reads as if the initial idea was to bring respite. Is this correct?
I love how Nestor is not only well known to be long winded but also the Iliad itself allots so many lines to him. Apparently his cup, described here, was a source of fascination in ancient times, although I think I would pass on the concoction they drank. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor's_Cup_(mythology)
You're not up for cheesy wine? ;)
I think I'll have the cheese and wine separate, thank you. And pass on the onion entirely.
You may have discussed this previously, but do you think Homer intended to portray Agamemnon as an unlikeable character (setting aside whether or not he actually existed in history for a minute)? I've always read him as pretty despicable, which I think has to do with the opening of the book, as you mentioned.