Great summary Matthew, you touched on all the things I was thinking, so I don’t have much to add. The humanity of this chapter definitely made it my favorite thus far. One question I had was that at one point Helen asks Hector to come sit with her, and I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to read that as entendre or at face value? (It’s especially hard to know with a translation.)
Even without the entendre, Helen is super mean to Paris: "I wish I shared a bed with someone better". I'm noticing that this section of Hector in the city has a rule of threes of women offering him to rest and he has to say no.
Matthew, another excellent essay. The disparity between Glaucus bronze armor v. Diomedes' gold armor had not registered with me. You mentioned this a symbolizing a difference in wisdom. Could it also be just a difference in power and a hint of what is coming?
When Glaucus is relating his history, he describes Proteus sending Bellerophon off to Lycia with "tokens, murderous signs scratched in a folded tablet." (Line 199). The King of Lycia sees Bellerophon's "credentials" and orders him to engage in various dangerous acts that Bellerophon survives against all odds. I don't think we ever get an explanation as to what is said about Bellerophon on the folded tablet. Did I overlook something? Do we assume that the message was nothing more complicated than put this SOB through the wringer?
I completely agree with your characterization of Hector as relatable. The word to describe Hector that came to my mind as read this book was "modern," because he is not experiencing the direct interaction with the gods. He accepts his god-ordained fate, but except for his prayer to Zeus for his son, he is at a remove from the meddling of the gods. The word "modern" came to my mind, but "relatable" is better.
Hector is the embodiment of the age-old conflict between personal interests and duty to a higher calling - country, community, religion, principles, etc. The conflict is even more poignant in the case of Hector, because duty to family is also a "higher calling." Hector's struggle with this conflict is heart-wrenching, but does his acceptance of his fate, to a certain extent, let him off the hook? If there is no real choice (free will), is it really dilemma or is just sadness?
Isn't it weird that Homer cuts in to say that Glaucus made a bad trade? I feel like the narratorial voice hasn't cut in like this to cast judgement on a character. Even at the beginning of the poem it's not Homer himself but Nestor that points out that the problem is that Achilles is best in combat and Agamemnon is best in terms of numbers of followers. Wilson has a note about this section that claims that often in Homer deals favor the actor with more power/prestige/etc so it some sense it tracks that Diomedes would come out ahead here but all the same Homer seems to condemn Glaucus here.
Wilson has an interesting note that says Bellerophon's note is the only reference to writing in the Iliad. She says it could imply an anxiety about the new technology of writing which seems fair. Although I think I need a history lesson about where writing had gone because the Babylonians and Egyptians had writing well before Homer, including during the time the Iliad is taking place, and were trading with all the areas of the Homeric Greek world.
I wonder if there is any scholarship that suggests it as a later edit to a manuscript? I see those types of discussions of the Bible based on multiple sources etc.
So I tried to work this out. One way to find out is to look in a “critical edition” which has footnotes when different manuscripts say different things. Here is the page from one. This section is the little paragraph at lines 232-236. There are no footnotes about those lines which should mean that they are not disputed. https://archive.org/details/homeriopera01home/page/n162/mode/1up
But, I am no expert at working these things out. And, given that the Iliad passed down by oral tradition for centuries (?) before it was written down it could be a later addition. I think people that are more familiar with it can make a call based on whether the writing sounds like Homer.
As with so much of literature, we have the opportunity to experience others trying to deal with destiny as if it were something that was within our (mortal) control. Here that wish is expressed by Andromache (the youngest generation of women portrayed in the Iliad) with the plea that Hector to prioritize his family’s safety over the battle. The heroic Hector, on the other hand, appears to have come to terms with Philip K Dick's assertion that reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
I was struck in this passage as well, especially Emily Wilson’s introduction which sheds a different light on Hector‘s interactions with his wife that I found compelling. She highlights the struggle h 44 e experiences as one between a duty and an honor that actually causes pain. Without him, he and his wife both know that she will be enslaved and abused. When he says that he is glad he won’t be there to hear her screams, it made me question the relative heroism and protection of what he’s doing. Wouldn’t he be protecting her better if he did not go, especially knowing that his going means his death and her suffering? Yet, the social convention of heroism and fighting pulls just as strongly on him as it does on Achilles. He is more self-aware of this dilema, though.
It seems like Hector and Andromache both know that she will have a bad time when he dies and they also seem to know he won't make it back. I guess fate has already had its say. Hector's description of what the future would be like for Andromache was pretty detailed. Seems like he could have chilled out a little.
I have to guess that this is the most direct speech by women that we will get in a book of the Iliad. I want to talk about Hector's visit to Helen and Paris but first: Hecuba says to her son (as Wilson puts it) "Wine can restore a man who is exhausted". Do you think that was the "it's five o'clock somewhere” of ancient Greece?
I love the scenes of Hector and Paris bickering. Paris uses the same line in Greek to respond to Hector as he did in Book 3 when Hector sets up the Paris v Menelaus duel. The line is
‘Ἕκτορ ἐπεί με κατ᾽ αἶσαν ἐνείκεσας οὐδ᾽ ὑπὲρ αἶσαν,
which Wilson translates as "Hector it is quite reasonable for you to scold me this way" but in Greek it looks more like "Hector you scold me just enough and not too much." Up to the line κατ᾽ αἶσαν but not past the line ὑπὲρ αἶσαν. Is this why hector becomes a verb that means to nag in English? I think the fact that Paris responds this way twice makes it funnier to me that Paris is so accustomed to being hectored that he has a stock response to it.
Visiting Greece years ago, I dined in a stunning restaurant with an ancient tree sprouting up from the center of the dining room through the open roof...gloriously like Penelope's bed. I can't help but to feel that the prose in the Odyssey remains the root of collective Greek memory.
One of the things I find most appealing here and you highlighted it best Matthew is how Hector's concerns are human - very little god influences on. him. His love, duty and devotion are pure and indeed make it very unique.
I'm reading Emily Wilson's translation, and choose to be accompanied by the Audible audio by Audra McDonald. That's because I tend to read quickly, and I believed I needed a guide to fully appreciate The Iliad. So, first, I'm finding that since Emily Wilson purposely made the text straightforward and edited it so much differently than other translators, it's easy to imagine a match for an audiobook reading with a skilled stage actress. Audra's intonations and forceful emphases throughout help me appreciate Homer's/ Emily's poetry/prose, and since The Iliad is largely about fighting and conflict, having had Audra in the house with her expressive volcanic volume just brings on the fury that *is The Iliad.....
....Also, Book 6 had strong resonance among the Reddit comments on The Iliad that I read just before beginning the read-along six weeks ago . And now I can see why Book 6 stands out (the Redditors also praised the last few books). The voice volume difference in Book 6 between 1/ Hector screaming at Paris, and 2/ Hector speaking with his wife about decision to return to battle and Hector saying goodbye to his son....on my own, reading first time through, I wouldn't have enriched the text with such skill. Looking ahead, I know Emily WIlson translation of The Odyssey is also on audiobook, with Claire Danes reading, maybe others as well.
I am reading/listening to Audra McDonald as well and for the same reason- to slow me down. She gives it a depth silently reading to myself would probably lack. I did this last year with Simon Haisell’s Wolf Hall slow read. What a difference it makes in appreciating what I was/am reading.
Hector’s quote about fate made me think of a quote from Beowulf. At the end of Beowulf’s life he is slain by a monster…after having spent his life successfully slaying monsters. He too knew it was his time to die, but he went and fought the dragon anyway. A sense of duty and honor.
It says, “For the first time Beowulf had to fight without success because fate refused to grant it to him.”
I was just struck by the differences and similarities between the two warriors and their situations, yet both still beholden to fate. Found it interesting.
Great summary Matthew, you touched on all the things I was thinking, so I don’t have much to add. The humanity of this chapter definitely made it my favorite thus far. One question I had was that at one point Helen asks Hector to come sit with her, and I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to read that as entendre or at face value? (It’s especially hard to know with a translation.)
I looked up the Greek word used for sit here. Looks like it doesn't usually imply the connotation of an entendre and is used several times in Homer to mean sit on a chair or similar. Its other connotation besides sitting is sinking into the Earth or of weights on a scale. Info from here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De%28%2Fzomai
Even without the entendre, Helen is super mean to Paris: "I wish I shared a bed with someone better". I'm noticing that this section of Hector in the city has a rule of threes of women offering him to rest and he has to say no.
Matthew, another excellent essay. The disparity between Glaucus bronze armor v. Diomedes' gold armor had not registered with me. You mentioned this a symbolizing a difference in wisdom. Could it also be just a difference in power and a hint of what is coming?
When Glaucus is relating his history, he describes Proteus sending Bellerophon off to Lycia with "tokens, murderous signs scratched in a folded tablet." (Line 199). The King of Lycia sees Bellerophon's "credentials" and orders him to engage in various dangerous acts that Bellerophon survives against all odds. I don't think we ever get an explanation as to what is said about Bellerophon on the folded tablet. Did I overlook something? Do we assume that the message was nothing more complicated than put this SOB through the wringer?
I completely agree with your characterization of Hector as relatable. The word to describe Hector that came to my mind as read this book was "modern," because he is not experiencing the direct interaction with the gods. He accepts his god-ordained fate, but except for his prayer to Zeus for his son, he is at a remove from the meddling of the gods. The word "modern" came to my mind, but "relatable" is better.
Hector is the embodiment of the age-old conflict between personal interests and duty to a higher calling - country, community, religion, principles, etc. The conflict is even more poignant in the case of Hector, because duty to family is also a "higher calling." Hector's struggle with this conflict is heart-wrenching, but does his acceptance of his fate, to a certain extent, let him off the hook? If there is no real choice (free will), is it really dilemma or is just sadness?
Isn't it weird that Homer cuts in to say that Glaucus made a bad trade? I feel like the narratorial voice hasn't cut in like this to cast judgement on a character. Even at the beginning of the poem it's not Homer himself but Nestor that points out that the problem is that Achilles is best in combat and Agamemnon is best in terms of numbers of followers. Wilson has a note about this section that claims that often in Homer deals favor the actor with more power/prestige/etc so it some sense it tracks that Diomedes would come out ahead here but all the same Homer seems to condemn Glaucus here.
Wilson has an interesting note that says Bellerophon's note is the only reference to writing in the Iliad. She says it could imply an anxiety about the new technology of writing which seems fair. Although I think I need a history lesson about where writing had gone because the Babylonians and Egyptians had writing well before Homer, including during the time the Iliad is taking place, and were trading with all the areas of the Homeric Greek world.
I wonder if there is any scholarship that suggests it as a later edit to a manuscript? I see those types of discussions of the Bible based on multiple sources etc.
So I tried to work this out. One way to find out is to look in a “critical edition” which has footnotes when different manuscripts say different things. Here is the page from one. This section is the little paragraph at lines 232-236. There are no footnotes about those lines which should mean that they are not disputed. https://archive.org/details/homeriopera01home/page/n162/mode/1up
But, I am no expert at working these things out. And, given that the Iliad passed down by oral tradition for centuries (?) before it was written down it could be a later addition. I think people that are more familiar with it can make a call based on whether the writing sounds like Homer.
As with so much of literature, we have the opportunity to experience others trying to deal with destiny as if it were something that was within our (mortal) control. Here that wish is expressed by Andromache (the youngest generation of women portrayed in the Iliad) with the plea that Hector to prioritize his family’s safety over the battle. The heroic Hector, on the other hand, appears to have come to terms with Philip K Dick's assertion that reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
I was struck in this passage as well, especially Emily Wilson’s introduction which sheds a different light on Hector‘s interactions with his wife that I found compelling. She highlights the struggle h 44 e experiences as one between a duty and an honor that actually causes pain. Without him, he and his wife both know that she will be enslaved and abused. When he says that he is glad he won’t be there to hear her screams, it made me question the relative heroism and protection of what he’s doing. Wouldn’t he be protecting her better if he did not go, especially knowing that his going means his death and her suffering? Yet, the social convention of heroism and fighting pulls just as strongly on him as it does on Achilles. He is more self-aware of this dilema, though.
It seems like Hector and Andromache both know that she will have a bad time when he dies and they also seem to know he won't make it back. I guess fate has already had its say. Hector's description of what the future would be like for Andromache was pretty detailed. Seems like he could have chilled out a little.
I have to guess that this is the most direct speech by women that we will get in a book of the Iliad. I want to talk about Hector's visit to Helen and Paris but first: Hecuba says to her son (as Wilson puts it) "Wine can restore a man who is exhausted". Do you think that was the "it's five o'clock somewhere” of ancient Greece?
I love the scenes of Hector and Paris bickering. Paris uses the same line in Greek to respond to Hector as he did in Book 3 when Hector sets up the Paris v Menelaus duel. The line is
‘Ἕκτορ ἐπεί με κατ᾽ αἶσαν ἐνείκεσας οὐδ᾽ ὑπὲρ αἶσαν,
which Wilson translates as "Hector it is quite reasonable for you to scold me this way" but in Greek it looks more like "Hector you scold me just enough and not too much." Up to the line κατ᾽ αἶσαν but not past the line ὑπὲρ αἶσαν. Is this why hector becomes a verb that means to nag in English? I think the fact that Paris responds this way twice makes it funnier to me that Paris is so accustomed to being hectored that he has a stock response to it.
Visiting Greece years ago, I dined in a stunning restaurant with an ancient tree sprouting up from the center of the dining room through the open roof...gloriously like Penelope's bed. I can't help but to feel that the prose in the Odyssey remains the root of collective Greek memory.
One of the things I find most appealing here and you highlighted it best Matthew is how Hector's concerns are human - very little god influences on. him. His love, duty and devotion are pure and indeed make it very unique.
Thank you for your summary Matthew.
Hector’s nobility/heroism is lost on me (via modern sensibilities) when he said:
“But as for me, I hope I will be dead,
and lying underneath a pile of earth,
so that I do not have to hear your screams
or watch when they are dragging you away.”
Another fab analysis.
I'm reading Emily Wilson's translation, and choose to be accompanied by the Audible audio by Audra McDonald. That's because I tend to read quickly, and I believed I needed a guide to fully appreciate The Iliad. So, first, I'm finding that since Emily Wilson purposely made the text straightforward and edited it so much differently than other translators, it's easy to imagine a match for an audiobook reading with a skilled stage actress. Audra's intonations and forceful emphases throughout help me appreciate Homer's/ Emily's poetry/prose, and since The Iliad is largely about fighting and conflict, having had Audra in the house with her expressive volcanic volume just brings on the fury that *is The Iliad.....
....Also, Book 6 had strong resonance among the Reddit comments on The Iliad that I read just before beginning the read-along six weeks ago . And now I can see why Book 6 stands out (the Redditors also praised the last few books). The voice volume difference in Book 6 between 1/ Hector screaming at Paris, and 2/ Hector speaking with his wife about decision to return to battle and Hector saying goodbye to his son....on my own, reading first time through, I wouldn't have enriched the text with such skill. Looking ahead, I know Emily WIlson translation of The Odyssey is also on audiobook, with Claire Danes reading, maybe others as well.
I am reading/listening to Audra McDonald as well and for the same reason- to slow me down. She gives it a depth silently reading to myself would probably lack. I did this last year with Simon Haisell’s Wolf Hall slow read. What a difference it makes in appreciating what I was/am reading.
Hector’s quote about fate made me think of a quote from Beowulf. At the end of Beowulf’s life he is slain by a monster…after having spent his life successfully slaying monsters. He too knew it was his time to die, but he went and fought the dragon anyway. A sense of duty and honor.
It says, “For the first time Beowulf had to fight without success because fate refused to grant it to him.”
I was just struck by the differences and similarities between the two warriors and their situations, yet both still beholden to fate. Found it interesting.
This might be my favourite chapter so far. I love the humanity. I think this is why I've always liked Hector, even after all these years.