Thanks Matthew for, again, an excellent overview and reflection on the book we read this week. I thoroughly enjoy the ride. I think it is no coincidence that this book about the darker, less heroic side of war (in a traditional sense) takes place under the cover of night. It certainly has a different ‘feel’ about it, and may indeed be a later addition. Not only in the description of Agamemnon as less than his stubborn and haughty self, being fearful and uncharacteristically concerned for the fate of his men, actively seeking the support and advice of this fellow but subordinate commanders.
For one thing, it occurred to me that horses play an important role in this specific book as highly priced objects. Maybe it stood out to me only because I’m reading ‘The horse and the rise of Empires’ by David Chaffetz on the side, which explains that in the later first millennium before Christ horses came to play a much more important role in warfare with the introduction of the cavalry horse in Western Asia and later also in the Aegean. A horse that could carry a rider and take part in cavalry charges was much more valuable than the horses used for chariots in the Bronze Age in which the Ilias is set. The chariot horses were much smaller and were something of a mid-phase between the mule or oxen and the strong, highly trained cavalry horse of the later Iron Age.
By the way, I can highly recommend this book for reading on the side, especially since a horse will come to play a crucial role in the final development of the story, if I may give away something of the plot ;-)
Maurice, thanks for your insights on this chapter. I found this to be an enjoyable read as well, a change of pace from what we have seen thus far. The history of horse that you bring up is intriguing and I might need to add that book to my list. I grew up on a horse farm and they have a special place in my heart. All the best, Matthew
Then you should definately put this book on your reading list, Matthew. Along with ‘All the pretty horses’ by Cormac McCarthy which is a very old favorite of mine. To be honest, I was introduced to Chaffetz book on another excellent Substack bookclub, I’ll send you the link when I retrieved the specific post. Hope you are doing okay considering the circumstances by the way. I always find creative work helps going on in hard times.
I love “All the Pretty Horses.” It is actually the first book in the Border Trilogy, all of which are quite good.
I look forward to checking out the link when you find it.
Thanks for your kind thoughts. Dad is recovering slowly at home now so things have calmed down a bit. Hopefully he continues to regain his strength. I agree, that creative work is an outlet.
Good to hear! And yes, the whole of the trilogy is great. I think I’ve read the whole about three of four times in total. The second part is by far my favorite though.
I fear that our modern day Nestors are being pushed aside at a time when they are needed most. I see both modern Dolons ready to give up the game and Diomedeses willing to blur moral boundaries.
As far as being a later addition, that is interesting, but probably harder to tell from a translation rather than source texts. It definitely felt like a breather but not necessarily out of place.
I was also curious where these guys were getting lion and leopard pelts? Were there trade routes to subsaharan Africa at the time?
As for trade routes, it seems to me that the ancient world everywhere was better connected than I would expect. There was a shipwreck discovered in the Mediterranean dated to the late 14th century BC that contained goods everything from tin from what is now Uzbekistan to wood and ivory from Africa to Mycenaean goods. The events of the Iliad would be one or two hundred years after that shipwreck and the composition of the Iliad a few hundred years after that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck
I originally read about that shipwreck in a book by Eric H. Cline called (dramatically) 1177BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed. It makes a good case that blaming it all on the Sea Peoples is a bit of a silver bullet situation. He doesn't cover trade routes in detail but he does go through the major civilisations and their interactions with each other in the lead up to the end of the Bronze Age. As a newbie to that whole era of (pre) history it was fantastic. I have the sequel (perfectly titled After 1177BC) but haven't gotten to it, for some reason I've read a bunch of Homer instead.
Chris, I agree with your assessment. We need more Nestors right now.
Nathan is correct in his comment. There were trade routes available where they could acquire these things. I am also curious if wildlife was more widespread. I found this interesting article that says lions may have been common in that part of Europe.
I also noticed the repetition when each man got up he put on his sandals, some sort of animal skin and his weaponary. It was interesting to see this repeated on both the Greek and the Trojan side, showing how alike these two sides really were
I wonder why this book was added later. Maybe the ancients were bored with all the battle scenes and nipple stabbings in the earlier books. Whatever the reason, I welcome it. It's nice to see the humans working on their own relying on intelligence rather than brute force and without any gods tilting the battlefield toward their favored side.
I think Emily Wilson's note about Book X being a later addition sums it up well (as do most of her notes). On the one hand, she points out that Book X doesn't advance the main plot, the "night raid in which the victims are taken unawares" is not typical, and even since ancient times it was believed to have been a later addition. On the other, "raiding adventures" and the story of Rhesus predate the Iliad. Apparently there was a tradition that if Rhesus and his horses drank from the Xanthos they would become immortal.
A modern study found that the language is more like the Odyssey than the rest Iliad (one element of the language difference that survives translation is that the speeches are much shorter than elsewhere, especially when Dolon is caught). Nevertheless, the writing is authentically Homeric Greek rather than later Classical era Greek, with the conclusion that it must have been added shortly after composition of the unquestioned books.
So much of the killing here seems at odds with the morality elsewhere. Diomedes kills Dolon as he's attempting to supplicate himself even though Dolon's offer of ransom seems like a reasonable offer. I could see an argument (though hypocritical) that by spying he has given up an expectation of normal dealing. Regardless Diomedes's aristeia among sleeping soldiers feels hollow.
I enjoyed the deep dive on Nestor. He has a moment of almost comic relief when he complains to Agammemnon that Menelaos should be up doing this work and keeps on talking until Agamemmnon gets a chance to explain it.
Quite a good observation. When I worked with the Navy SEALs for a few years, the buddy system was an integral part of their training and for good reason.
I have to say—it was an absolute pleasure to read. Your ability to weave literary analysis with historical insight and contemporary relevance is masterful. This was more than just a breakdown of The Doloneia; it was a journey through the shadows of war, where strategy, deception, and cold pragmatism replace the grandeur of battlefield heroics. Thank you for this.
Thanks for this, Matthew! I'm finally starting to catch up again.
What struck me in this book was the contrast between the Greek leaders joining together to spy on the Trojans, and Hector only managing to find poor Dolon. It made me wonder if the situation would have unfolded differently, had only one more person gone with him. It was also interesting that while the Greeks seemed driven by somewhat "nobler" desires, Dolon just wanted riches in exchange for his service. Perhaps some commentary on principle there?
I also think the Nestors of today are sadly becoming perceived as less relevant by younger generations. There's some chronological snobbery there, if I may use the phrase.
Apologies for the late comment as I catchup. Hoping to be on track for the finale later this week.
Re: Matthew's question: "How does Book 10 explore the theme of cunning versus brute force in war?" Clearly, The Iliad is mostly about the brute force bit, the wrath of Achilles, the bravery of Hector, the rampage of Diomedes, etc. But how was the Trojan War actually won? Cunning.
The Greeks call this strategy; the Trojans call it cheap. Oddly, it makes me think of football. Tom Landry loved his "gadget" plays, while Lou Holtz thought teams that resorted to trick plays did it because they couldn't beat their opponents straight up.
In any case, Odysseus' pragmatism makes him a fascinating character. Maybe that's why this book was added to The Iliad? Give the folks another adventure with everyone's favorite "complicated man"?
Thanks Matthew for, again, an excellent overview and reflection on the book we read this week. I thoroughly enjoy the ride. I think it is no coincidence that this book about the darker, less heroic side of war (in a traditional sense) takes place under the cover of night. It certainly has a different ‘feel’ about it, and may indeed be a later addition. Not only in the description of Agamemnon as less than his stubborn and haughty self, being fearful and uncharacteristically concerned for the fate of his men, actively seeking the support and advice of this fellow but subordinate commanders.
For one thing, it occurred to me that horses play an important role in this specific book as highly priced objects. Maybe it stood out to me only because I’m reading ‘The horse and the rise of Empires’ by David Chaffetz on the side, which explains that in the later first millennium before Christ horses came to play a much more important role in warfare with the introduction of the cavalry horse in Western Asia and later also in the Aegean. A horse that could carry a rider and take part in cavalry charges was much more valuable than the horses used for chariots in the Bronze Age in which the Ilias is set. The chariot horses were much smaller and were something of a mid-phase between the mule or oxen and the strong, highly trained cavalry horse of the later Iron Age.
By the way, I can highly recommend this book for reading on the side, especially since a horse will come to play a crucial role in the final development of the story, if I may give away something of the plot ;-)
Maurice, thanks for your insights on this chapter. I found this to be an enjoyable read as well, a change of pace from what we have seen thus far. The history of horse that you bring up is intriguing and I might need to add that book to my list. I grew up on a horse farm and they have a special place in my heart. All the best, Matthew
Then you should definately put this book on your reading list, Matthew. Along with ‘All the pretty horses’ by Cormac McCarthy which is a very old favorite of mine. To be honest, I was introduced to Chaffetz book on another excellent Substack bookclub, I’ll send you the link when I retrieved the specific post. Hope you are doing okay considering the circumstances by the way. I always find creative work helps going on in hard times.
I love “All the Pretty Horses.” It is actually the first book in the Border Trilogy, all of which are quite good.
I look forward to checking out the link when you find it.
Thanks for your kind thoughts. Dad is recovering slowly at home now so things have calmed down a bit. Hopefully he continues to regain his strength. I agree, that creative work is an outlet.
Good to hear! And yes, the whole of the trilogy is great. I think I’ve read the whole about three of four times in total. The second part is by far my favorite though.
https://open.substack.com/pub/contraptions/p/the-steppe-function?r=3e2z9y&utm_medium=ios
I fear that our modern day Nestors are being pushed aside at a time when they are needed most. I see both modern Dolons ready to give up the game and Diomedeses willing to blur moral boundaries.
As far as being a later addition, that is interesting, but probably harder to tell from a translation rather than source texts. It definitely felt like a breather but not necessarily out of place.
I was also curious where these guys were getting lion and leopard pelts? Were there trade routes to subsaharan Africa at the time?
As for trade routes, it seems to me that the ancient world everywhere was better connected than I would expect. There was a shipwreck discovered in the Mediterranean dated to the late 14th century BC that contained goods everything from tin from what is now Uzbekistan to wood and ivory from Africa to Mycenaean goods. The events of the Iliad would be one or two hundred years after that shipwreck and the composition of the Iliad a few hundred years after that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck
I am intrigued by the number of trade routes. Going to need to do some deeper reading on that topic I think.
I originally read about that shipwreck in a book by Eric H. Cline called (dramatically) 1177BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed. It makes a good case that blaming it all on the Sea Peoples is a bit of a silver bullet situation. He doesn't cover trade routes in detail but he does go through the major civilisations and their interactions with each other in the lead up to the end of the Bronze Age. As a newbie to that whole era of (pre) history it was fantastic. I have the sequel (perfectly titled After 1177BC) but haven't gotten to it, for some reason I've read a bunch of Homer instead.
Chris, I agree with your assessment. We need more Nestors right now.
Nathan is correct in his comment. There were trade routes available where they could acquire these things. I am also curious if wildlife was more widespread. I found this interesting article that says lions may have been common in that part of Europe.
https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/lions-europe/
I also noticed the repetition when each man got up he put on his sandals, some sort of animal skin and his weaponary. It was interesting to see this repeated on both the Greek and the Trojan side, showing how alike these two sides really were
I wonder why this book was added later. Maybe the ancients were bored with all the battle scenes and nipple stabbings in the earlier books. Whatever the reason, I welcome it. It's nice to see the humans working on their own relying on intelligence rather than brute force and without any gods tilting the battlefield toward their favored side.
That's a good point. I hadn't really noticed how the gods are fairly well sidelined in this book.
I agree Joanne. I enjoyed this interlude quite a bit.
I think Emily Wilson's note about Book X being a later addition sums it up well (as do most of her notes). On the one hand, she points out that Book X doesn't advance the main plot, the "night raid in which the victims are taken unawares" is not typical, and even since ancient times it was believed to have been a later addition. On the other, "raiding adventures" and the story of Rhesus predate the Iliad. Apparently there was a tradition that if Rhesus and his horses drank from the Xanthos they would become immortal.
A modern study found that the language is more like the Odyssey than the rest Iliad (one element of the language difference that survives translation is that the speeches are much shorter than elsewhere, especially when Dolon is caught). Nevertheless, the writing is authentically Homeric Greek rather than later Classical era Greek, with the conclusion that it must have been added shortly after composition of the unquestioned books.
So much of the killing here seems at odds with the morality elsewhere. Diomedes kills Dolon as he's attempting to supplicate himself even though Dolon's offer of ransom seems like a reasonable offer. I could see an argument (though hypocritical) that by spying he has given up an expectation of normal dealing. Regardless Diomedes's aristeia among sleeping soldiers feels hollow.
I enjoyed the deep dive on Nestor. He has a moment of almost comic relief when he complains to Agammemnon that Menelaos should be up doing this work and keeps on talking until Agamemmnon gets a chance to explain it.
Nathan, thanks for bringing up Wilson's notes. Those are good points.
I found the manner of killing to be be odd as well when compared to other parts of the story even though death is prevalent throughout.
Nestor is a gem. One of my favorites. We need more Nestors.
Book 10 is certainly a great plug for using the buddy system. Things might have been much different if Dolan had taken a friend.
Quite a good observation. When I worked with the Navy SEALs for a few years, the buddy system was an integral part of their training and for good reason.
Also, I have not read it but there is a play called Rhesus traditionally ascribed to euripides, but probably written much later.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that but will check it out.
I have to say—it was an absolute pleasure to read. Your ability to weave literary analysis with historical insight and contemporary relevance is masterful. This was more than just a breakdown of The Doloneia; it was a journey through the shadows of war, where strategy, deception, and cold pragmatism replace the grandeur of battlefield heroics. Thank you for this.
Thank you Jon. I appreciate the kind words. I enjoyed going deep into this chapter.
Thanks for this, Matthew! I'm finally starting to catch up again.
What struck me in this book was the contrast between the Greek leaders joining together to spy on the Trojans, and Hector only managing to find poor Dolon. It made me wonder if the situation would have unfolded differently, had only one more person gone with him. It was also interesting that while the Greeks seemed driven by somewhat "nobler" desires, Dolon just wanted riches in exchange for his service. Perhaps some commentary on principle there?
I also think the Nestors of today are sadly becoming perceived as less relevant by younger generations. There's some chronological snobbery there, if I may use the phrase.
Apologies for the late comment as I catchup. Hoping to be on track for the finale later this week.
Re: Matthew's question: "How does Book 10 explore the theme of cunning versus brute force in war?" Clearly, The Iliad is mostly about the brute force bit, the wrath of Achilles, the bravery of Hector, the rampage of Diomedes, etc. But how was the Trojan War actually won? Cunning.
The Greeks call this strategy; the Trojans call it cheap. Oddly, it makes me think of football. Tom Landry loved his "gadget" plays, while Lou Holtz thought teams that resorted to trick plays did it because they couldn't beat their opponents straight up.
In any case, Odysseus' pragmatism makes him a fascinating character. Maybe that's why this book was added to The Iliad? Give the folks another adventure with everyone's favorite "complicated man"?