Thank you for sharing so much about Hermes. I was fascinated as I read through that essay. And, believe it or not, I hadn't realised that he was Mercury in the Roman pantheon. Mercury was the figure on the cap badge of the Royal Corps in Signals, in which I served as a younger man. Makes sense as the army corps responsible for comms, but I love his tricksy ways too. I feel enriched for having learned more about the figure on my cap badge.
For what it's worth, I think a fascinating story to develop would be from the idea that one of the reasons it was so easy for Achilles to kill Hector was because Hector was wearing Achilles armor, and therefore Achilles knew exactly where the vulnerabilities were. If I ever have the time, I will think more about this. But I think there's something there. At any rate, thanks for a great discussion.
This was an extraordinary reflection, thoughtful, richly layered, and deeply moving. You made Hector’s struggle and Achilles’ descent feel vividly real, and your modern parallels were beautifully drawn.
Achilles is certainly no hero, and the other soldiers stabbing Hectors dead body are no better. Even today it seems harder to be a gracious winner than a gracious loser, with everyone trying to “own” the “other side”.
And I always thought Hermes was the god of $10,000 handbags… who knew?
The desecration of Hector's corpse (which continues in Book 24, leading the gods to intervene) actually brought to my mind media coverage of similar atrocities during the horrific battle of Fallujah in Iraq and more recently in Ukraine. We humans have made less progress than we think in the last few thousand years. I guess that is why we're still reading The Iliad -- it's violence and bloodlust expose what war makes some men capable of in a way that is timeless and pitiless. I agree that Achilles is no hero--to me, Hector and his father are more admirable. But maybe I'm just showing a sensibility peculiar to our times.
I haven’t quite figured out the significance of gods disguising their appearance to talk to the heroes. In the last book Apollo tricks Achilles into running away from Troy and when he finally reveals himself he taunts Achilles for not figuring it out. And sometimes they do figure it out, I think Diomedes might have in one episode. But in this book Hector is likewise tricked but realizes it means his fate has come. You would think that everyone would be paranoid.
Ha, yes I surely would be! In this respect, the Ilias could be interpreted as a warning against AI-abuse through scamming old people with generated vocal impersonations of grandchildren asking for money to get saved from a really tricky situation!
Again, I love to read Matthew’s musings after reading the chapter myself, especially his exposition on Hermes. But I don’t agree with his statement that Homer ‘critiques the heroic ideal’. I believe that is a too modern interpretation. ‘Homer’ – or whoever crafted or transmitted the story – was drenched in the same culture of the ‘classic heroic ideal’ as anybody else in those times. It is tempting to interpret the descriptions of extreme violence and resulting grief as moral condemnations of war, but in Homer’s time and (much) later it was just the description of - or meditation on - the general human condition, although with some hyperbole added for dramatic impact. That is why these stories can be fascinating but also offputting for a modern audience: the trenchant misogyny especially, but also the almost total disregard of animal and human lives in much of the epic reflect a culture very distant from our own in heroic ideals and moral convictions, but still echoing our inherent nature as, at least partly, unreasoned and cruel or plain stupid creatures making live on this earth more miserable than it could be for everyone involved because of our eternal limitations as moral human beings.
Yes, I agree that the poet isn’t critiquing honor culture. In fact, Homer (or whoever wrote The Iliad) goes to great lengths to give honor to those who fought at Troy. However, I do think the poet is clear-eyed about the price of glory. The man who dies in battle doesn’t necessarily bear the highest cost. That cost, as Matthew points out, is most often paid by women and children. Andromache is a perfect example of this. By the time the war ends she will have seen her husband murdered, his corpse disgraced, her city sacked, and her infant son dashed on the rocks beneath Troy’s walls. The horrible price one must pay for eternal glory is exactly what makes this story a tragedy.
Personally, I think the attitudes about honor in the poem are the most difficult to relate to from a modern perspective. Putting myself in Hector’s shoes (sandals?): If I had to choose between my wife being enslaved and my infant son, murdered, or being called a wimp—well, that’s a no brainer! Who cares what other people think, right! I’m going to protect my family. Or, at the least, maybe I wouldn’t meet a fighter far superior than me in combat alone. Yet, many men throughout history have traded their lives for honor. I am glad I don’t live in time where I’d be faced with such a choice.
By the way, the excellent descriptions of Hermes as a winged messenger between worlds made me finally figure out the deeper meaning of the heron as a main character in the recent Miyasaki feature ‘The Boy and the Heron’. Has anybody here seen this movie and have additional thoughts on it? Would love to hear this!
Thank you for sharing so much about Hermes. I was fascinated as I read through that essay. And, believe it or not, I hadn't realised that he was Mercury in the Roman pantheon. Mercury was the figure on the cap badge of the Royal Corps in Signals, in which I served as a younger man. Makes sense as the army corps responsible for comms, but I love his tricksy ways too. I feel enriched for having learned more about the figure on my cap badge.
For what it's worth, I think a fascinating story to develop would be from the idea that one of the reasons it was so easy for Achilles to kill Hector was because Hector was wearing Achilles armor, and therefore Achilles knew exactly where the vulnerabilities were. If I ever have the time, I will think more about this. But I think there's something there. At any rate, thanks for a great discussion.
This was an extraordinary reflection, thoughtful, richly layered, and deeply moving. You made Hector’s struggle and Achilles’ descent feel vividly real, and your modern parallels were beautifully drawn.
Achilles is certainly no hero, and the other soldiers stabbing Hectors dead body are no better. Even today it seems harder to be a gracious winner than a gracious loser, with everyone trying to “own” the “other side”.
And I always thought Hermes was the god of $10,000 handbags… who knew?
Yeah disappointed in the Greeks there. Turns out war sucks
The desecration of Hector's corpse (which continues in Book 24, leading the gods to intervene) actually brought to my mind media coverage of similar atrocities during the horrific battle of Fallujah in Iraq and more recently in Ukraine. We humans have made less progress than we think in the last few thousand years. I guess that is why we're still reading The Iliad -- it's violence and bloodlust expose what war makes some men capable of in a way that is timeless and pitiless. I agree that Achilles is no hero--to me, Hector and his father are more admirable. But maybe I'm just showing a sensibility peculiar to our times.
I haven’t quite figured out the significance of gods disguising their appearance to talk to the heroes. In the last book Apollo tricks Achilles into running away from Troy and when he finally reveals himself he taunts Achilles for not figuring it out. And sometimes they do figure it out, I think Diomedes might have in one episode. But in this book Hector is likewise tricked but realizes it means his fate has come. You would think that everyone would be paranoid.
Ha, yes I surely would be! In this respect, the Ilias could be interpreted as a warning against AI-abuse through scamming old people with generated vocal impersonations of grandchildren asking for money to get saved from a really tricky situation!
Again, I love to read Matthew’s musings after reading the chapter myself, especially his exposition on Hermes. But I don’t agree with his statement that Homer ‘critiques the heroic ideal’. I believe that is a too modern interpretation. ‘Homer’ – or whoever crafted or transmitted the story – was drenched in the same culture of the ‘classic heroic ideal’ as anybody else in those times. It is tempting to interpret the descriptions of extreme violence and resulting grief as moral condemnations of war, but in Homer’s time and (much) later it was just the description of - or meditation on - the general human condition, although with some hyperbole added for dramatic impact. That is why these stories can be fascinating but also offputting for a modern audience: the trenchant misogyny especially, but also the almost total disregard of animal and human lives in much of the epic reflect a culture very distant from our own in heroic ideals and moral convictions, but still echoing our inherent nature as, at least partly, unreasoned and cruel or plain stupid creatures making live on this earth more miserable than it could be for everyone involved because of our eternal limitations as moral human beings.
Yes, I agree that the poet isn’t critiquing honor culture. In fact, Homer (or whoever wrote The Iliad) goes to great lengths to give honor to those who fought at Troy. However, I do think the poet is clear-eyed about the price of glory. The man who dies in battle doesn’t necessarily bear the highest cost. That cost, as Matthew points out, is most often paid by women and children. Andromache is a perfect example of this. By the time the war ends she will have seen her husband murdered, his corpse disgraced, her city sacked, and her infant son dashed on the rocks beneath Troy’s walls. The horrible price one must pay for eternal glory is exactly what makes this story a tragedy.
Personally, I think the attitudes about honor in the poem are the most difficult to relate to from a modern perspective. Putting myself in Hector’s shoes (sandals?): If I had to choose between my wife being enslaved and my infant son, murdered, or being called a wimp—well, that’s a no brainer! Who cares what other people think, right! I’m going to protect my family. Or, at the least, maybe I wouldn’t meet a fighter far superior than me in combat alone. Yet, many men throughout history have traded their lives for honor. I am glad I don’t live in time where I’d be faced with such a choice.
You’re absolutely right. Thanks for pointing that out, it’s an important distinction to make.
By the way, the excellent descriptions of Hermes as a winged messenger between worlds made me finally figure out the deeper meaning of the heron as a main character in the recent Miyasaki feature ‘The Boy and the Heron’. Has anybody here seen this movie and have additional thoughts on it? Would love to hear this!